London -- 29 October 1999

Text of Quaid-e-Tehrik Altaf Hussain's interview with the Online senior journalists including its Editor-in-Chief Salim Bokhari, Editor Javaid Qureshi and Chief Reporter Ismail Malik

Online: How do you feel about recent change in the country, particularly dismissal of Nawaz Sharif regime and army's take-over?

Altaf Hussain: Democratic steps taken by the elected democratic government always strengthen and flourish democracy in a country. Whereas undemocratic steps taken by the elected government always invite undemocratic actions and that is what has happened in Pakistan a few days ago. Nawaz Sharif was running the country not as an elected Prime Minister but as a dictator and as a despotic ruler. He was persistently subjugating the press, media, and victimising political opponents, committing extra-judicial executions of political opponents, particularly the members of the MQM. He was also slaying the judiciary and finally he was trying to politicise the Army.

I am not at all surprised at what has happened as a result of undemocratic acts of Nawaz Sharif that he committed in Sindh province, such as the suspension of the elected Assembly and imposition of the "Governor Rule". These kinds of undemocratic steps led the country to this situation. As far as the take over of the Army is concerned, I would say that Nawaz Sharif had left no choice for the Army but to take that action. He had not only sacked the Army Chief without giving any reason but also conspired to assassinate the COAS along with the 200 other passengers on the plane. He did not allow landing his aircraft at the Karachi Airport. These kinds of humiliating and unfair steps were not taken as actions against an individual but taken as an action against the entire institution. The entire institution did not like this and, therefore, the Army as an institution reacted.

Online: Is there any chance of return of democracy in Pakistan?

Altaf Hussain: Of course, Pakistani people are democratic and they like democratic rule in the country. As promised by the COAS, we hope that the democratic process will be restored as soon as possible. It is known to everybody that country's future lies in the democratic rule and not in any other type of undemocratic rule.

Online: In your capacity as leader of country's third largest political force, how you would comment on the failure of Nawaz Sharif regime?

Altaf Hussain: I have already mentioned the causes of the failure of his government. However, there are other factors also that is the collapse of economy and law and order of the country, unemployment is escalating and basic amenities were not provided to the citizens, recession has set in as investment evaporated.

Decisions were made in a personalised manner, not through institutions. Nawaz Sharif did everything to make himself strong and to concentrate all the powers in his hands. For this reason he damaged the institutions and deprived the smaller provinces of all the powers. He made the national assembly his rubber stamp, tried to make Senate ineffective, tried to gag the freedom of press and made the police and administration his personal force. There was a sense of deprivation and restlessness amongst the masses, particularly the people of smaller provinces, especially in Sindh province where he suspended the elected assembly and imposed his personal rule.

So when a government starts to demolish the institutions of State instead of strengthening them and treat the people as slaves instead of serving them, it is bound to fail.

Online: Urban centres of Sindh province, particularly a clear majority of the citizens of Karachi and Hyderabad are consistently posing their confidence in your leadership since more than past decade. In return, what you and your party did to safeguard their interests and resolve problems?

Altaf Hussain: While we had and have the mandate of the people of urban centres of Sindh, the successive governments, Establishment and the bureaucracy never accepted that mandate and never gave us true power of governance. If you look back and see that since August 1990 to 18^th. June 1992 when we were given limited power on the Local Bodies level, we did our best to redress the problems of the people of Sindh. Whenever we had a little chance to serve the people, we served them honestly. When our Mayors got elected unopposed in Karachi and Hyderabad, they were deprived of all the powers by the then Government. But despite this we tried to solve the problems of the people, we constructed flyovers, roads, bridges, parks, hospitals and educational institutions. First flyover of Karachi and the first medical college by a municipality in the history of Pakistan was established during the tenure of MQM's mayors. We provided employment and basic amenities to the people.

Not only the people of urban areas of Sindh are witness to our services and struggle but the people of other provinces also acknowledged and appreciated MQM's struggle. That is why the people of urban Sindh repose their confidence in MQM repeatedly in all the consecutive general elections since 1987. Similarly people from all over Pakistan also started to join the MQM.

This was the beginning of the Middle Class rule at provincial level, true democracy and good governance was being established for the first time in the history of Pakistan. This sent the shudders to the spine of corrupt rulers; Establishment and bureaucracy who decided to launch an Army operation against the MQM to crush it. What is our crime? Our only crime was and is that we were serving the people, we were and are still struggling for the rights of the people -- this is our only crime. Had we abandoned our struggle and had become part and parcel of the corrupt political system of the country, we would not have been subjected to such a brutal operation.

The fact is that power has never been given to the MQM. Those who formed the government truly had the power to redress the problems of the people of urban Sindh but they did not. We did our best but were always denied the right to rule as you would know that whenever, the meeting on law and order situation took place, the MQM’s elected representatives were not allowed to participate in those meetings, whether those meetings were presided by the deposed Prime Minister or the Chief Minister. We tried to get and still trying to get the rights of the people, the common middle-class and poor class people of the country through democratic means. We contested the elections, made alliances in which, we made agreements. They were composed of the grievances and problems of the people of urban centres of Sindh, which were supposed to be redressed. The successive governments promised time and again by making alliances and agreements that they will fulfil the clauses of the agreements. However, the successive rulers did not fulfil even a single promise. We are living in exile, thousands are languishing in jails, unannounced ban on our political activities is still there, in such conditions how can we serve and redress the problems of the people when power has been denied to us. We are struggling with determination, fortitude and living in exile is no fun. What can we do? The extra-judicial executions were going on and the State brutalities were at its height but I did not surrender. When my brother and nephew were arrested, I did not apply for mercy for their release. I did not bow down. Despite all the difficulties and problems, I am committed and determined that a time will come when the authorities of Pakistan, the establishment of Pakistan and the international community will understand the genuine problems of the people of urban Sindh. The Establishment and the international community will certainly find out the root cause of the country's problem - i.e. the medieval feudal system - unless and until that feudal system is abolished, nothing will be achieved. The prosperity of Pakistan lies in the abolishment of the feudal system. We are struggling to attain the rights of the people and we will continue our struggle until the achievements of those rights.

MQM is the only representative political party of the masses, including the middle class and downtrodden people of the country. MQM is the only true democratic party of the country, and a proof of our claim is that an Army Operation commenced on 19 June 1992, against the MQM, has continued in one form or other by the successive governments. Despite facing ruthless and brutal operation, the vote bank of the MQM and the massive support of the people remained intact. This is a proof that MQM is a democratic party and the masses are with us. They know that to achieve their rights they have to go through a long struggle with determination and commitment. People are also aware that difficulties and sacrifices are part of a just struggle. That is why people are with MQM and patiently enduring all the difficulties and atrocities with their full determination, belief and steadfastness that one-day they will be victorious.

Online: Is there any chance of better understanding between MQM and Army's leadership after longest hostile environment?

Altaf Hussain: First of all I want to clarify that MQM believes in the integrity and solidarity of Pakistan and struggling to promote national integration. While the MQM has this agenda, therefore, it is obvious that MQM respects all the national institutions, particularly the Armed Forces, the Army. The successive governments used these forces against the MQM and misinformed the Generals in the Pakistan Army to take biased steps against the MQM. Now this is the time that the leadership of Pakistan Army should be realistic in realising the problems of the people of urban Sindh. They should now allow the MQM to participate in its political activities fully according to the rule of law. MQM wants better relationship with the Army because it is in the interest of the country.

Secondly, MQM does not believe in confrontation and we don’t want any confrontation with any institution of the State including the Army. We believe that the strengthening of national institutions is necessary for the betterment of the country.

Online: What is the official policy of the MQM about slogans of "first ruthless accountability and then election". Is this not a repeat of Gen. Ziaul Haq's myth of "pehle ehtesab, phir intikhab"?

Altaf Hussain: MQM has never ever demanded that first accountability should be done and the process of election, thereafter. The MQM or any leader of the MQM never made any such statement. We believe in the representative democratic elected government to run the affairs of the government and take care of the people of Pakistan. The people of Pakistan have tested repeatedly the two major national political parties. MQM is the third largest political party, which has never been provided an opportunity to rule the country. Now is the time for the MQM.

Elections should now be held as soon as possible and MQM should be allowed to carry out its political activities not only in entire Sindh but also in the provinces of Punjab, NWFP and Balochistan freely. MQM has the solution of all the problems faced by the country or faced by the people of Pakistan. MQM has its manifesto, which clearly provides the answers of all the problems of our country. We appeal to the military establishment to restore the democratic process and MQM should be allowed to participate in its political activities all over Pakistan. When MQM will be allowed to hold its political activities all over Pakistan, I am confident and determined that people will certainly think and will understand the manifesto of the MQM. MQM will emerge as the major political party of Pakistan in the forthcoming elections. Provided, we are allowed to carry out our political activities throughout Pakistan freely without any undue obstacle then we are confident that the people of entire Pakistan, like the people of urban centres of Sindh, will sacrifice and bear all difficulties to make Pakistan a true democratic country.

Online: Will MQM continue as component of GDA alliance particularly when its one point agenda of "oust Nawaz, save Pakistan" has been achieved?

Altaf Hussain: This will be decided by the Central Co-ordination Committee of the MQM.

Online: What steps MQM will like to take for broader understandings between new and old Sindhis?

Altaf Hussain: We have always done our best in this regard. MQM is continuing its efforts to build a better understanding and harmony between Mohajirs and Sindhis. My several statements stand as testimony to my commitment to making Sindh a pluralistic province. Mohajirs and Sindhis were and are brothers and we will continue to be. MQM does not want to snatch the rights of Sindhis but want full autonomy for the province without direct or indirect interference of the Federal Government. By the Grace of God, Sindh has all the natural resources while Karachi is its provincial capital, which is the hub and trade centre of Pakistan. If we are allowed to govern and run the affairs of the province as an elected representatives of the people then Sindh and its people will achieve prosperity.

Online: Is the MQM going to recognise itself at national level, particularly in entire Sindh and three other provinces?

Altaf Hussain: Yes, I have already given the answer. MQM has changed its name from Mohajir Quami Movement to Muttahida Quami Movement on 26 July 1997 and MQM has provincial offices all over Pakistan. However, the Government of Nawaz Sharif sealed them. The leaders and office bearers from Punjab, NWFP and Balochistan were arrested, brutally tortured and taken to jails by the successive governments including that of Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif. After the imposition of "Governor Rule" in Sindh, all the provincial offices of the MQM in Punjab, Balochistan and NWFP, were raided, looted and later on sealed. We want to disseminate the political philosophy of the MQM all over Pakistan. MQM is the only alternative to the present two-party corrupt system in Pakistan. However, MQM was never allowed to carry out its political activities through out Pakistan. Now the establishment should allow the MQM to carry out its political activities in the entire Pakistan freely, without subjugation and harassment. MQM will demonstrate that it will carry out its political activities peacefully and according to the law of the land.

Online: What about politics of State terrorism and countering the same with indulging in terrorism and violence as being witnessed since longest dictatorship of Ziaul Haq?

Altaf Hussain: MQM does not believe in violence and is against all kinds of terrorism. But as I mentioned that undemocratic steps invite undemocratic actions. If the custodians of law take the law in their own hands then it means that they are inviting the people to take the law in their hands. It is also a fact that violence breeds violence. It is better for the government to act according to the law and the constitution. Whenever extra-constitutional means are adopted by the government they invite extra-constitutional reactions by the people. Some of the people loose their patience and retaliate because of the psycho-reactionary actions.
 

What is a psycho-reactionary action?

If someone hits a mother, daughter, sister or a wife in front of her brother, father, son or husband, what will be his feelings if he is not in a position to stop the perpetrators who are hitting them? A feeling of anger will grow within him and he will certainly want to take revenge by any means. This reaction of a person or persons is called 'psycho-reactionary action'.

Similarly the persistent process of committing brutalities and atrocities against a particular ethnic community is continued, then some people of that community loose their patience and retaliate because of natural in-built psycho-reactionary actions. So one should realise the difference between violence and psycho-reactionary actions.

Online: What is your defence in the cases in which you have been convicted?

Altaf Hussain: I have been convicted only once on a false and fabricated allegation by the STA Court, which was proved later as fabrication and a concoction. I filed a petition against that judgement and finally, I along with my other falsely accused colleagues were acquitted honourably.

What does it indicate? That the judiciary has been influenced by the Establishment. The writ of the judiciary and its independence must be restored and guaranteed. So nobody will have the courage to falsely implicate their political opponents to obtain personal gains.

It means that the judiciary should be free and made independent, which is unfortunately not the case so far in our country.

Online: Is there any plan of coming back and surrendering before the law after ending self exile in UK?

Altaf Hussain: I wish to come to Pakistan. I want to be there, I want to be there with my people, I love my country, I love my people, I want to serve my country, I want to serve my people but it depends upon the decision of the Central Co-ordination Committee of the MQM. I am here not by my choice but because they are not permitting me to come back because of the situation in Pakistan since 1992; they have fear for my life.

Online: As convicts sentenced by Pakistan's court of law, have you and Benazir Bhutto any right to do politics and lead your supporters any more?

Altaf Hussain: The question is that who announced the convictions? On what grounds? There are so many steps in the judicial system, the Kangaroo Court for political victimisation sentenced me. I filed a petition in the Higher Court in 1994 and waited for years and finally the case was proved to be baseless and fabricated. It was known to everybody, so I along with my colleagues was acquitted honourably. Unless, the judiciary is autonomous, independent and outside the executive control, justice can not be delivered. Take the example of Ms. Benazir Bhutto, who in her various speeches and statements while in power said that Altaf Hussain should return to Pakistan and face the Courts. Now she herself is living in exile and not returning to Pakistan. She is herself refusing to accept the medicines that she was prescribing for me while in power. Does this not mean that she herself now lacks the confidence in the same judiciary and the judges that she was once asking me to come and face? Nevertheless, Benazir and everybody should be allowed to file an appeal against the decision if they feel that the decision is not just. If the Higher Court or Ehtesab Commission acquits them honourably, then they have the right and so have I.